Saddle Fit Session #3

Lisa Jordan kindly got in touch with me and offered to take a look at my saddle set up, my wonky horse, my wonky riding, and see what light she could shed on the situation.

<phew> what a lot of information squashed into a short period of time. As such I'm going from addled memory, so any mistakes in information are mine.

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Her observations:

• Fergus' back is flat as a flat thing, and fourteen times longer than it needs to be.
• Fergus' pectoral area is way more overdeveloped than it needs to be - while his butt is a sad pathetic thing. This likely contributed to him going lame last year - because I've let him get so heavy on the forehand, yet he isn't necessarily moving freely, so he's slapping his big feet down with all his weight on that end.
• I am riding with all my weight in my stirrups and my pubic bone (no wonder I was experiencing pressure) and need to learn to carry my weight in my thighs (which, in turn, will lift me off my weight-in-feet and stop crushing my delicates).
• I am moving too much "with" him, thereby exacerbating his big movement even more and creating yet more friction (friction being something I feel like I've been fighting for several years by fiddling around with pad material)

She has a nifty program on her computer that allows you to visually strip down the horse, layer by layer, showing muscle, fascia, bone and ligament. She showed me which muscles are supposed to be there and have atrophied (the more superficial rhomboid and trapezius) and what he has left - the long deep muscle running along either side his spine - the longissimus dorsi.

This is where I'd been confused. I initially thought this was muscle, then was told it was ligament, only to find out that, yes, it is muscle. This is the area that has been rubbing - mostly because it's the only thing left of any prominence in his back, in terms of muscle. It's also the area I've been trying to stay away from with my shimming/panel contortions. But as she pointed out, if I stay away from that, there's not much left to sit a saddle on. :(

Panel comparison:
RP panel on the left, FF on the right.
Notice the "scoop" in the RP panel gullet area
behind the withers. Notice also the larger
weight-bearing surface.

Panels:

She took a look at the Freeform and the panels. Biggest problem she could see was with the shape of the FF panels - they are too straight along the top gullet edge in the middle, which means they are pressing on that problem area.

Luckily I'd identified this as being "wrong" and my way to get around it was to spread the panels as wide as I could. Unfortunately, whilst that widened them away from the pressure area, it also took the weight-bearing surface away from the remaining muscle-area in the back of the saddle. Not good.

We compared the reactor panel panels with my FF ones and concluded that I could actually carve out the offending area of insert in the FF panel - leaving an empty baggy area and I think the cover is rigid enough that it wouldn't get bunched under where it shouldn't - and equally wouldn't put pressure where it shouldn't. Since I plan to continue using these panels on my Sensation saddle on my other horses, I'll likely make this modification.


Saddle Fitting:

My last ride on the borrowed Freeform had been Thursday - I rode two miles - and Saddle Fit Session #3 occurred on Sunday - and I was still sore enough in my adductors to be waddling funny.

My thought was that was if the saddle worked perfectly for Fergus, then I would make it work for me. But in the event, while it might work on a "normal horse" (i.e. any of the others), the weight and pressure distribution was still not going be be great for him - particularly in his compromised state. What I need for him at this point is whatever's going to offer him the best protection and the best opportunity to grow a healthy back. So we didn't pursue the Freeform any further.

Lisa took a look at my Sensation - with the same reservations - it doesn't have a gullet, so needs the panels, but they aren't the right shape for what Fergus needs, and it offers even less support, so we didn't fiddle with that saddle any further either.

Onto Reactor Panel saddles. Since Lisa knows about them and how to fit them to horse and rider, it seemed sensible to try them out and see how things felt.

As I'd mentioned before, I'd ridden in a borrowed RP saddle on a borrowed horse at an endurance ride a few years back and didn't love the saddle - years of riding in treeless saddles has meant that I am not so tolerant about the hardness of treed saddles. Admittedly, that saddle wasn't fitted to me, so it's not surprising I wasn't terribly comfortable in it.

(As an aside, I mentioned to Lisa that I got a horrid calf-rub from it and she wondered if the stirrup leathers had been run *underneath* the flap, which can create a nice little ridge where the stirrup leather comes out at the bottom. I don't remember. I just remember using an entire roll of vet wrap to protect my lower leg from 12 miles onwards).

NB: saddle pics below taken from the RP Saddle website.
Click pics for more info on each saddle.

Baker saddle—the first saddle she put me in was a Baker saddle. She said this is a very flat tree, so ideal for Fergus' flat back - and would be the least invasive to my delicates because of the fairly flat seat and lack of rise in the pommel area. It had knee blocks in under the flap.

We rode maybe a mile or so, with some trotting thrown in and she was able to figure out what my riding problems were (and therefore why I've been having the problems I've been having). I started my endurance career in a Bob Marshall Sportsaddle which, because of the lack of twist, tends to make you ride duck-footed. And apparently I never really got out of the habit. My "protective mode" is to drop my weight in my stirrups and turn my feet out, contacting the horse with the back of my calf (just take a look at my half-chaps for a clear indication of this). And I ride with a long stirrup.

So she shortened up my stirrups (Lucy wailing about jockey-length and insecure seat) and had me rotate my inner thigh in to contact the saddle flap and carry my weight.

I think I maybe managed three strides of "good riding", but I got the idea.

The seat wasn't great for me - too flat, so I was swimming around and fighting my balance (all things that would be helped if I actually had any core muscles... Core muscles? What is it?).


Heraldic—the next candidate was a heraldic saddle - this is basically a flapless version of the englishy saddles, with "poley" type thingies up high to stop you falling out - a definite plus. The lack of flap means it's lighter-weight and potentially closer contact against the horse - although that's debateable, because you then add fluffy covers on the stirrup leathers which are lovely and cushy, but push you away from the horse.

This seat was much better suited to me - I felt much more comfortable in it, with the exception of where the cantle was digging into my butt around the bottom edge (same problem as I had on the Freeform). Whilst it felt more comfortable, I also felt like I'd be able to just fall back into my old habits riding in this saddle, which wouldn't help either of us. I wasn't as able to ride correctly in this saddle due to muscle memory putting me back to my [bad] "comfort zone".

Lisa did point out something I hadn't realised - that any of the trees/seats can be "Heraldic-ized" - that is to say, you can order them in flapless variety. She also mentioned someone might be selling a used "Heraldic" with a Tribute seat - more about that later, but if I was made of money, that's likely the option I would go for. All of these saddles are much heavier than I'm used to, and once I strap on all the stuff-that-I-can't-possibly-do-without, it would weigh a ton. So having a lighter-weight flapless version would be a definite plus.

The next saddle I sat in was the Endurance model - I only tried it on the saddle stand. We discussed the various merits of knee blocks, thigh blocks (which is what the endurance model has built in) (and I thought thigh blocks went behind your leg, but those are actually calf blocks. Huh). The seat felt fine, but the saddle was brand new and quite stiff feeling, which scared me.

Tribute—then she pulled out a Tribute saddle and that—as the Three Bears said—was "just right" for me. It has a higher cantle (something that I felt had been lacking from all the strange saddles I'd been riding in thus far) and just felt "right" for my butt.

So we slapped that onto Fergus and off I went down the road on my out-n-back mile route. I trotted and whilst it wasn't pretty, it felt the best of all the saddles I'd tried that day. It rotated my leg beautifully, so I was able to keep my thigh turned in and my calf on the horse (something that worried me - I thought I wasn't supposed to, but it was explained to me that when your leg is rotated in like that, you're not using the fulcrum (?) of your knee to add super-pressure the way you can when your leg is rotated out, so the horse can breathe and he won't hate you).

The only real complaint I had about it was how hard it was, it was digging into my seat bones. So Lisa kindly loaned me a sheepskin cover and I came home with this (used) saddle on trial for a couple of weeks:

The saddles are beautifully made, and the price reflects that. At this point, this is my main reserve - the cost. If I was made of money, I would get one of these in a flash. But money is tight right now, and given all our other bills, I'm having a hard time justifying it to myself—a really hard time. I want Fergus to be comfortable and healthy and I want to be able to compete on him (although that in itself is looking less promising this year because of finances), but I have to look at other options before I take the plunge on this kind of outlay. I would like to trial an endurance model (slightly cheaper), and I need to test sit anything I can find at the AERC Convention at the end of February, to see if there's something that might work that won't cost as much. :(

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It's now Tuesday and I still haven't had a chance to try the saddle out again. The next two days are rain-free, and then it starts to rain again, so I need to get out there first thing before work.

Spot how much fun this type of weather is to someone who works Mon-Friday:



...and how excited am I about that 2.28 inches of rain on Friday?! Woot! Not.

Saddle Fit Session #2

Wednesday

After my sad attempt at riding in the borrowed Freeform saddle during the PLIP Saddle Fitting Session ten days ago - and with the subsequent encouragement from others who also said it took them a while to get used to "free-swing" stirrups again - I decided I needed to give the saddle a second chance since it fits many of my desired criteria:

• doesn't cost an arm and a leg
• highly adjustable for horse and rider
• treeless so moves with the horse and rider
• sturdy enough to support the needed wide gullet.
   

Slick and clean. If only all horses were like this.

At least Fergus is now blanketed, so I didn't have to worry about coating the borrowed saddle in mud by mere association with said horse. I could whip off the blanket, revealing a clean, slick horse beneath (just avoid looking below belly-level).

Mega-Gullet® added to accommodate Fergus.
I'm still not sure this gullet is wide enough.

To make the saddle suitable for horse and rider, the following adjustments were needed:

• add the FF panels to provide a Mega-Gullet®
• arrange them in an artful manner under the saddle to fit Fergus' ginormous back
• replace the stirrup-plate* with an alternative one with "slightly different" stirrup leathers (really, not that different at all, but any little thing might help the agonizing pokiness the other stirrup leathers were causing)
• move the whole stirrup-plate forwards for me in an effort to stop me flipping forwards (this probably means now I'll be stuck in a chair seat, unable to post or two-point. Can be adjusted once I get in the saddle)
• try and make the pommel in the seat be less peaked so I don't keep ramming into it.

(* the stirrups on the Freeform attach to a removable "plate" (velcro patch about 3" x 6" with stirrup rings attached) under the seat -which is also removable and attached with heavy-duty velcro[so heavy duty, so you can't actually get the stupid thing off without a major wrestling match - and you shouldn't try this in woolly gloves or you'll find yourself velcro-ed to the saddle] so you can have your stirrups exactly wherever you need them to be.)

Wednesday was the first day it hadn't poured with rain in a week and I had a window of 70 minutes to get the horses mucked, fed, and get the saddle set up for Fergus and I in a "ready to ride" state before I left for work.

"Speed muck" was what I was aiming for and despite setting myself a timer of 8 minutes per shelter (x five), I still failed dismally. Even though I was dripping sweat by the time I was done, I couldn't get everyone sorted out in that time - and encroached into my puny 30 minute "saddle fit" time slot by ten minutes. Going to be late for work. Erg. (Hadn't taken into account possible side-activities like when Fergus tried to pee on the already sodden manure because he couldn't be bothered to move out into the dirt under the overhang, so I shouted at him and punted him on the bum with my broom from the adjacent shelter. Or the part where I had to sweep the 4"-deep lake out of Small Thing's shelter to stop it draining into Roo's shelter next door. Or the part where at least two horses-who-shall-remain-nameless re-pooped in their newly-cleaned shelters).

The main trouble I encountered is he's so durn big I can't actually see what's going on under the saddle when I'm standing on the ground. So I ended up standing on a short step-ladder which didn't work terribly well since Fergus didn't think me standing on a step-ladder was Acceptable Behaviour. Each time I got up there, he'd move away a couple of steps. Finally he was jammed up against the panel and I was teetering on the steps, a little nervous in case he did something stupid (i.e. blow up, swing sideways, flinging me off the step-ladder, and trampling it, and thereby getting his legs stuck in it and maiming himself for life. Which is what most normal horses would do. Luckily, although he can be a weenie about stuff, Fergus isn't that excitable. He prefers to use the stealth spook method - slither away without anyone noticing).

It was early morning so the light wasn't great, especially with his tall body silhouetted by the daylight outside, but by the end I was reasonably satisfied with how it was set-up. I'm guessing it'll still need some tweaking once I start riding, but at least we're closer than we were.

It wasn't until I went to put the saddle away and opted to switch out the 2" neck stirrups with 1" ones that I realised I had them on backwards. Not sure if this is how they were ten days ago when I last rode in the saddle, but if they were, that wouldn't have helped the pokiness. 

Trying to get the panels lined up evenly under the saddle is an artform.
Looking at this photo, I still need to adjust them slightly.

And I would also like to move the panels forwards slightly,
so they are evenly-placed front-to-back

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Thursday:

This ride nearly didn't happen. Events conspired against me and it was a pretty bad day. But we got out in the end, even if it was only for a couple of miles (which, frankly, was about all my body was up for).

Firstly, I remembered to hose off his feet and legs before leaving home, so I was able to boot him - a great improvement to how ouchy he was on our last ride out.

Putting on his boots. His feet were in need of a trim, so what with them being clean and moist,
and being blessed with a new 90 W bulb in the barn, when we got home he got a pedicure.

Here's how far apart the panels were. I'd still like to move them forwards a little.
The panels are currently stuffed with Jen-X layered poron inserts.

Dressed and ready to go and watching a fellow endurance rider up on the hill above us.
I opted to use my Triple Thick Woolback again, since I figured that the panels should provide enough cushioning.

Off we went up the West Ridge - Fergus very animated and extremely cheerful. I, OTOH, felt super-teetery (despite having moved the stirrups forwards. Maybe need to move them further forwards still?) and very insecure. Once we got to the top, I tried short bursts of trotting. Immediately had to stop and lengthen my stirrups - I don't know if it was the saddle, the panels, or the stirrup leathers (Webers), but it felt like I was trotting on elastic bands - super-boingy. Longer stirrups helped, but not much.

If he trotted sensibly in a straight line, I felt like I could nearly approximate someone who knew how to ride. But as soon as he got animated, or we went down a hill, or I needed to slow him down, I was toast, flopping all over the place and tipping over his neck, giggling uncontrollably. At one point he took off on me - trotting downhill and then breaking into a flailing canter that felt like a buck-to-come - all on slick trail - with me having nothing to brace against to rein him in. Luckily either my loud obscenities or his good sense prevailed and it didn't end in tears, but like I say - very teetery and insecure.

Another interesting oddity - I could only feel balanced in this saddle if I rode with both hands. I tend to ride one-handed most of the time and alternate hands, but for this I needed to stay very centered and for that I needed to have both arms in exactly the same place.

Pft watching from behind said I was collapsing to the left, so I have to work on that too.

Downhills were especially challenging. Not so bad if I set myself up for them,
but at this point there's no way I could trot down even a slight incline.

As far as Fergus was concerned - he moved great in this set up. I haven't felt him walk out that well in ages, and clocked him at over 5 mph walking. His trot was BIG and bouncy and I had a hard time toning him down - much more enthusiastic than our last ride at Cool (but then I opted not to boot him on that ride and he was quite ouchy). This ride he was Mr Happy the whole time and if that was from this saddle set up, I'd be a very pleased girl.

To my eye, it still looks like the top edge of the panel is resting on his problem area, but it could be that the way the saddle distributes pressure it isn't a problem. That's a question for my Saddle Fitter Helper.

As far as I was concerned, me and the saddle still need a lot of work. Right now, there's no way I could do a long conditioning ride in it, let alone a distance ride. The panels spread the saddle wide (as my hips do tell me) and using the standard seat, the pommel presses into my delicates, the bottom edge of the cantle was digging into my butt, even though the seat felt, if anything, a little large. There was some pinching from the stirrup leathers and along the bottom edge of the seat - both of which would probably be cured by using my full-length sheepskin cover - which may also help with the insecure feeling and maybe calm my legs down a little,

If I was to get such a saddle, I think I'd need the seat with the poleys and the deeper cantle (not sure if that has a narrow twist though?), and the extra large knee rolls (and maybe even thigh blocks). Using fenders may slow the legs a little too.

Or just riding in it for longer periods of time. Already, by the end of our two mile ride I was feeling a little more "contained", but still not close to feeling competent (and there's no way I'd ride Roo in this saddle - I'd be off him the first time he saw a blade of grass).

When we got back to the trailhead, I had pft take a couple of short videos of me trotting. The first one is headed towards the trailer and Mr Happy is quite animated and I'm having a hard time (note the leg flailing). The second video is trotting away from the trailer, so he's less eager ("Wait? Weren't we done?") and I felt less teetery - although my riding looks better in the first video. Figures.

(* Hmm, anyone know how to get videos to show up in Blog? they look OK until I upload it and then they're blank)

So, inconclusive results again, although I think we're moving closer to curing his discomfort.

Next stop Saddle Fitter Helper - weather permitting.

Or if weather doesn't permit, I'll be visiting Dionne and trying out her Balance saddle and her Orthoflex.

Inconclusive Saddle Fitting

Sunday it stopped raining for a nano-second and warmed up to nearly 50°F, so I was able to finally try out some saddle/pad combinations with the Port Lewis Impression Pad (PLIP) I'd borrowed before Christmas. You're supposed to use it at 50°-70°F / 10°-21°C which was a bit tricky in Southern California where the warmest day we had was 45°F / 7°C.

Not sure if it was because the day's temperature was still pretty cool or what, but the results weren't terribly conclusive in terms of what you could see in the pad (I could actually feel what was going on a little better). I did exactly the same route with each saddle+pad combination: up around the back of my property (requires a short steep climb and descent), down the driveway, along the lane at a trot, up a gradual hill at a walk, trot back along the lane, trudge back up the driveway, for a 2 mile, 30 minute round trip. On the third saddle, the Bob Marshall, I finally ran out of daylight and had to feel around in the dark and wait for the following morning to take the photo.

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Step 1: Removed copious amounts of crud from filthy horse. He's only been home a week and was already liberally coated. I scraped the worst off with a shedding blade.




Step 2: Wash remaining grime off filthy horse with the use of hot water piped from the basement. Was glad for both our sakes that I have a hose set up for this.



Step3: Insert wet clean horse into blankies and install in front of breakfast to dry off while I went indoors for a sandwich.



Step 4: Start to test saddles. I put a pillowcase under the PLIP to keep it clean and so he didn't have slidey plastic against him as I know some horses can't deal with that at all. The whole thing was fairly slidey anyway and made it hard to feel comfortable to start with. Not to mention I haven't been on him since September and have been riding 12:3 hh Small Thing instead. I felt very high up and very unstable.

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Saddle #1: Sensation + Freeform Panels + Triple Thick Woolback pad

The Freeform panels are currently stuffed with high-tech Jen-X multi-layer poron inserts. These are the same material as the pad inserts I used for VC100, but I reasoned I just need to use them differently. The Triple Thick Woolback was a Christmas present from my mumma (thanks mumma!) - I'm not sure what my actual plan for this pad is, but thought it might compliment the FF panels - pad cush without the bulk of a pad with inserts.


In the photo, you're looking at the underside of the pad, with the front at the top, so the right side of the picture is the left side of the horse.

The impression was pretty much as expected - pressure along the topline. Looking at this, it reinforced an idea I've got about how I can improve this set up - and indeed I tried it on Tuesday. More about that later.

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Saddle #2: Freeform + Haf pad + Equipedic Inserts.

I borrowed this saddle from Kerrie (thanks Kerrie!). I really liked how it sat on him, but when I got on the saddle it made me squeak like a squeaky thing. Holy crap - I could not ride in this saddle to save my life and was flopping around like a landed fish. OK, so it's been a while since I rode in a saddle with free-swing stirrups, but that was ridiculous. The pommel admittedly needed adjusting (it was set up very peaked and I kept crashing into it), so I could probably improve the fit for me, but - gah - it was hard to ride in. I was bummed because I really wanted to like this saddle and the impression wasn't actually too bad. I think the underside profile is wider than for the Sensation, so although there's still pressure, it was slightly better. I'd like to try this again with my FF panels, but am not sure if it's worth it given the difficulty I was having staying balanced in the saddle. Will think on this a bit more.


Because the day was warming up, as was the PLIP (and thus giving a more pronounced impression?) I had a hard time stopping it sliding down the windscreen on the truck (my viewing platform, post-ride), hence the creasing on the right.

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Saddle #3: Bob Marshall Sports Saddle + Skito Dryback pad + Skito inserts

For the grand finale, I tried this saddle - the reasoning being that although I doubt it'll work, I already own it, so should try it - stranger things have happened. This is the saddle I started my endurance career in back in 1998. I rode for a few seasons in it (and not many rides when I look back) on both Provo and Mouse and was perfectly happy. Since then, it has pretty much lived in the heated basement as a "just in case" option.

Funnily enough, Fergus actually felt the best in this saddle - he was walking out really big and moved well. It might be that the seat was huge (I used to ride it in a sheepskin cover), so I was sitting a bit chair-like even though the stirrups are set back - sitting on your back pockets = better for gaiting? But then again, it could be because it was the end of the day and he wanted his supper. That's why saddle fit on a non-demonstrative horse is hard - it's not like he tells me that he's uncomfortable. I also felt pretty comfy in it, but my gut feeling was that it was going to pinch him in the withers.


By the time we were done, it was pretty much dark, so I had to wait until the following morning to take the PLIP photo, but could feel in the dark that - yup - it was really tight around the withers.

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So conclusions? I'm not sure I have any, based on what I see from the PLIP impressions - at least no different from my existing knowledge.

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Fast Forward to Tuesday Morning:

The main thing I understand is I need to get pressure away from the ligaments either side of his spine because this is the current way any saddle seems to be fitting him:



Tuesday morning it hadn't rained for two days and looking at the forecast, this was the last rain-free window we were going to have for ten days or so. So I persuaded pft to come out with me on his mtn bike and we scuttled out early and rode at Cool for a couple of hours. When we were done, I'd continue on down to work and pft would take Fergus and his mtn bike home.

Although it was bright sunshine, it was pretty slimey out there and we had some interesting shimmying going on at times. Because his feet were so mud encrusted and because of the slick footing, I opted to leave Fergus barefoot which proved to be a mistake - unless it was soft easy footing, he was very tender-footed. Next time I'll be hosing off his feet before we leave home and he will be booted.

My aim on this ride was to see how far apart I could place the FF panels under the saddle - aiming basically to get them as wide apart to allow for F's back ligaments. And I got them pretty wide - so wide that 30 hours later, my hips are still whining about it.

You can just see the panel poking out under the saddle in the back. I was reasonably happy with this experiment (whiny hips, notwithstanding), but it needs a bit of fine-tuning.

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Fast Forward to Tuesday Afternoon:

On Monday evening, I'd sent a long email to Dana Johnson at Sensation Saddlery up in Canada, explaining the problems I've been having and asking if she had any ideas on how I could remedy the problem.

She called me back on Tuesday afternoon and we had a long talk on the phone. I was very appreciative of her honesty - keeping in mind she designed the Sensation saddle, so knows what can/can't be done. 

And the gist of the conversation was her telling me that she'd dealt with horses built like Fergus before - slab-sided, yet with huge spinal ligaments - and she basically thought that I'd never get the Sensation saddle to work satisfactorily on him. She said the basic problem is your seat bones are 4" apart, and Fergus needs a 6-8" gullet, and a treeless saddle doesn't have the structure to be able support the rider's weight across that span. 

So I was pretty bummed, to say the least. 

However, all is not lost. She pointed me in the direction of DP Saddlery - they make highly adjustable, flex-tree saddles, which hopefully will have the capability to accommodate Fergus' weirdo back. I have an email in to them, now, so we'll see if they can help. 

In the meantime, I think I can get the FF panels to work - albeit not an ideal set-up (particularly for me and my hips), but it might get us through in a pinch until an alternative can be found.

Looks like I'm going to be needing to sell some saddles in the near-future to fund a new one for Fergus - probably the Bob Marshall Sports Saddle and one of the Sensation Hybrids.